Tuesday, February 22, 2011

MicroFIT: Paying people to use less grid power.

Some 20,000 applications in Ontario have been submitted to the Province to have solar panels installed. Of those some 3700 are connected. There is no data yet on what these supply in power to the grid nor how much is being paid to these people for that power.

The claim is these people are supplying power to the grid. But are they? Is that the correct way of looking at their set up? I don't think it is.

Let's be clear about these panels. I'm sure you have all seen some of them around the countryside (us rural folk have anyway). The set up is small. Sure, they look big enough. But understand that these panels, if only hooked to the person's house, would not supply the power needs of the home.

Let me state that again. These panels CANNOT supply the power needs of the home. You would need many more of them to be able to do that.

I visited a home in Sarnia about 4 years ago who has 20 panels on his roof (this is before the FIT program). He was supplying about 20% of his home with these panels. But what happens at night? He has 60 batteries. So the panels had to charge the batteries by day AND supply the home's power demand, totalling some 20% over all for the day.

So we can extrapolate that situation to these FIT producers. They are not supplying power to the grid at all (even though they are connected). They are using all of that solar power to offset SOME of what they are using themselves from the grid.

For example (and these are just numbers out of the air until concrete values can be found), a home consumes some 100kWh of power a day. The solar panels, when the sun shines, produces 20kWh of power a day. So this person is charged $0.09/kWh for the 100kWh he uses every day ($9), and gets $.065/kWh for the solar panels ($13). So the person is netting $4 per day for using 20% less off the grid.

Now without the real numbers this is just a ballpark calculation, but you get the picture.

The bottom line is we are paying solar people huge sums of money for them to use a little less of grid power. And at a time when we have excess production.

Now, if they want to use that solar power to offset their hydro bills (that is they get $0.09/kWh) then I would have no problem with that. But not paying them more, not making our power system their personal retirement fund. I heard about one person in Beaverton who was expecting to net $60,000 per year into his retirement from selling power to the grid at $0.65.

Personally, I think he has been duped. I think he will find that the output from these panels is not going to come close to what he was told they would produce, maybe half if lucky. But still, it's just not right that some people can't feed their families because of their hydrobills, but these people get to live a grand retirement contributing to those high bills.

99 comments:

  1. Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

    ReplyDelete
  2. If your going to tell a guy he's full of S**t then the least you could do id tell him why, instead of hiding behind the anon.
    I don't know if its right or wrong but i will research what he says. I do know when the idea was pitched to me it came out almost exactly as Richard states. I was supposed to make money!!
    Mike

    ReplyDelete
  3. Yes, you really don't know what you're talking about. A simple web search for microFIT will give you lots of data to go by. Try "How much can you make microfit" The numbers are out there, they have been for a while!

    It's clear that a system installed today is capable of producing most or all of the power that a home needs, when considered in total across the entire year. The excess power goes to the grid when it's not needed, the house uses power from the grid when they're not producing. The net for a whole year can be zero grid consumption or close to it.

    The environmental impact of large scale deployment of these systems cannot be overstated. A single system can virtually eliminate the carbon footprint of an entire house, or at least cut it back to pre-Kyoto levels for sure.

    The cost to Ontarians is minimal, certainly less than the billions that have gone down the nuclear drain ("Debt retirement charge" until 2018 at least!). And by enabling the removal of coal fired production entirely, the health costs saved will be significant.

    This program is about the future, and making it better for everyone. Instead of moaning and complaining, you could install a system yourself. If you don't have a good location of your own, there are community solar projects you can invest in, like Options for Green Energy, or TREC's SolarShare.

    Stop being part of the problem!

    --Julian

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually there is not much data about your microfit on internet. Try looking for some comment from people with the microfit program, making money. I really don’t get it and how people go for that is beyond me. You invest lets say 60K$ and the system will be paid off in 10 years now the next 10 years you will make 60K$ witch was your original investment....that’s with no major fault..like panels and inverter replacement and maintenance . now if you take your 60K$ an leave in the bank and collect 2 or 3% per year....after 20 years you will have collected X amount of interest...but the best part is that you still have your 60K$ in the bank versus your solar that is worth 0$...and if you think it will be worth more let me ask you a question. Would you buy 20 years technologies....looked at those big satellite antennas from the past...would you pay much for one of those....obsolete....

      Delete
  4. > Now, if they want to use that solar power to offset their hydro bills
    > (that is they get $0.09/kWh) then I would have no problem with that.

    You are aware that the cost of supplying power at the 9 cent rate is around 17 to 23 cents right?

    And that the difference between those two numbers is paid off through your income taxes, right?

    And you're perfectly happy demanding that people put up new plants at whatever the cost is, but not get the same subsidies as the existing large players?

    Well there's a recipe for disaster.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Fact. If they do not pay the existing contract prices no one could afford to put up a system and expect to get a return on their investment. I always hear this .09 cent a kw. however I always pay a far cry more in all the other costs to get it to my house. Just remember the cost of a computer and a calculator when they first came out.
    Small minded people are concerned about only themselves and hounourable people care about the health and future of their childten and future generations after that. Imagine if past gernerations dumped all their waste materials in the great lakes because it was cheaper at the time to do so. Where would we stand today? We are responsible and must to the right thing!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  6. More short sighted idiocy from the self proclaimed leading authority Richard Wakefield:

    http://h1ripoff.blogspot.com/2011/03/fit-program-screwups.html
    http://h1ripoff.blogspot.com/2011/04/reply-to-carls-comment-2.html

    Id love to get some support on my arguments posted on these links.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Richard WakefieldJune 27, 2011 at 5:33 AM

    Carl, how much power are you producing? I got an email from someone who has a system in the US. He managed to scrape out 3300kWh in 9 months. In Dec alone I used 3200kWh. 9 months of sun to produce power for one month of winter consumption. Yep, I can really see this working... NOT!

    ReplyDelete
  8. Richard WakefieldJune 27, 2011 at 5:37 AM

    "Fact. If they do not pay the existing contract prices no one could afford to put up a system and expect to get a return on their investment."

    Why would power production be considered an "investment"? From what I see it's not going to be a very good "investment" even at the rates they are producing power, which is one month's worth of power over a year. You won't even make your interest payments with that. 2 years or less, we will see these people going bankrupt.

    Right thing? Making power rates so high that people can't pay and get cut off is the right thing???

    ReplyDelete
  9. Since June 1 (26 days) I have produced just over 1700 kwh and thats with the 1 week+ of overcast weather we just had. On a good day Ill produce about 80-90 kwh and on a really bad day 35, 32 was my absolute worst day. 93 was my absolute best. This is a non-tracking sytem.

    I realize in the winter it will be alot lower with the shorter days (december (lowest projected month) at roughly 30-35% of July(highest project month) but ontario as a whole doesnt need the power then. Our demand shortfall is in the summer.

    This informtaion is from manually reading the inverters, I'm still waiting to install the separate monitoring sytem which will allow me to store the production on my computer for review, will upload some numbers then.

    ReplyDelete
  10. 3200 kwh is high for one month but is not the average, thats in the dead of winter with geothermal heat. I heat with geothermal as well and my loads were up there too. They have come down considerably since then though (may was 900 kwh, june should be about 750 as per hydro ones usage page)

    ReplyDelete
  11. http://portal.powerhousesolar.ca/publicpage.aspx

    Link shows actual production statistics from up and running facilities. You can view system description and production figures hourly, daily, monthly etc for any of the dozens of facilities they have up around southwestern ontario.

    I think this debunks your production speculations Richard.

    ReplyDelete
  12. The Microfit program in Ontario is pretty well on track-
    In terms of feasibility, those people that have optimal sun exposure can definitely MAKE money at todays low interest rates. We pay an average of 19 cents per kwh. If the government wants to PAY us a guaranteed rate of 80 cents for 20 years, the initial investment could very well pay for itself well within that time frame... the rest is gravy.
    If more people used solar panels that provided energy back to the grid, the huge benefit to society, and the world, would be a MUCH lower carbon footprint and LESS need for new fossil fuel generating stations or even nuclear power plants. And that is a VERY GOOD thing. I only wish that all countries had generous microfit programs and that they continued them from year to year and not just according to the whims of different political parties.
    Of course, the MAIN thing to encourage is geo-exchange heating and cooling. At a 400% efficiency rating and eliminating the need for fossil fuels to heat our buildings (plus is cools at double the efficiency of regular air conditioners)this in itself would give the economy and the environment the biggest bang for the buck.These systems run on a small amount of electricity, and this electricity requirement can easily be covered by the power generated by about a 10kw solar setup with lots left over (for the average household) to meet the rest of electrical demand. Sorry Richard, you're not right on this one.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The rest is gravy...actually it is nothing...worth 0$ after 20 years.
      Please dont talk about carbon foot print and pollution.... i was getting 28 MPG with my first pickup truck back in 1986 and now with my 2011 truck i am getting 28MPG.....what did the people and government did to help with that. Do you really think we need subsidises from the government for the green energy buy the way who is paying for all those you and me.... and unfortunately our kids
      People installing solar system are there for the money only...it is all they talk about how much they will make...if you ask me they wont make 1$.....what do i know about solar...well i have a 14.4KW system witch i paid with my money and not selling a dime of electricity ...

      Delete
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  14. One of the other things to consider is that this electricity is generated locally and consumed locally. This is much more efficient than transmitting the power over hundreds of kilometers from the generating station. Even if you're not using it, your neighbour is. Keep in mind that our electricity generation is already subsidized by the government. The per kWh fee on your bill is less than what it costs to generate it. The rest is subsidized through the government (your pocket). So instead of subsidizing coal, gas or nuclear, the government is subsidizing solar. And they subsidize roof-top solar at a very high rate in the microFIT programme to try to get the masses to install PV systems in residential neighbourhoods, thus getting power generation closer to the consumption location.

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  15. Just want to say what a great blog you got here!
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  16. MicroFIT is a great program started by Canadian government.

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    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Tell me one thing the government touch and made it good. If it wouldn’t be for all the business paying taxes in Canada the government would be broke. Remember years ago Ontario Hydro was making money and now the government runs is....a deficit every year....and it will be like that for ever

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  32. You need to check your numbers. I have a small microfit system (20 panels).

    My average daily hydro usage is between 15 & 24kwH. My daily on-peak average (7am until 7pm) is around 3-6kwH.

    We run our equipment like the dishwasher and washing machine at night when the hydro is cheaper.

    Today my solar system produced 29kwH and it's not summer time yet.

    So if you do the math 29 - 6 = 23kwH.

    Today I put 23kwH back onto the grid.

    There might be days when it is cloudy that I use more than I produce but on average I generate much more than I use.

    If you are going to make statements make sure they are backed by legit info......

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